Fresholi | Melting Pot Café

Anyone else experienced this? I have been experimenting with polysorbate in my room sprays and I've been noticing recently that the floors are getting treacherously slippy. I have laminate flooring throughout and inevitably the room spray mists the air then settles on the floor leaving it slippery. I'm not selling it yet but obviously don't want to be selling something that could lead to an accident! I'm going to try reduce the polysorbate, (currently using at 8%) and if I can't find a workable level, maybe I'll just leave it out altogether, better that the customer has to shake the bottle, than risk breaking a hip ;) but just wondering if anyone else had problems with this?

interesting - I've been playing around with room sprays but have carpet, tiles and vinyl, so haven't noticed. But certainly worth thinking about.

well I sprayed one of mine - in fairness fairly close to the floor - and it did go into a fairly sticky glop on the floor.

What an interesting observation.  I hadn't heard anyone mention this before but I wonder if all would notice if they have carpets as opposed to laminate flooring.  You are right to be cautious though  :buttrf:

Yeah if people have carpets its a none issue but laminate is becoming increasingly popular, so I guess its best to try and cater for all eventualities. Funnily enough, its only when I'm wearing certain shoes that I notice the slippiness but now I know its a problem, I can't just dismiss it. I have tried searching the net for others who have encountered this problem but can find no mention of it but it must be the polysorbate thats causing it, so I'll have to work on it.

Would it make sense to make room sprays with oil free fragrances? I am not keen on spraying my furniture with oil based things, really. And Room Fresheners like Febreeze seem to be water based.

I was using essential oils and water, the polysorbate was to disperse the EO.

Perhaps one can do without?

I've seen alcohol used as the base rather than water.

Indeed if its leaving a residue on laminate it isn't a good product, regardless of if it isn't so visible on carpet, I agree with MP, I wouldn't want it there or on the furniture

I know with LS I can dilute FO into them without problems, but EO need to be done with care because they are not water soluble. Perhaps products like Frebreeze use FO that are part alcohol and thus more water soluble? Things like vodka are about 40% ethanol and the rest mainly water and that is the sort of thing many people use for DIY perfume. Quite expensive option for a room spray.

EO are mix of terpenes (sort of resin) and various other compounds that can leave a residue. So a mainly water based product will be an issue. I'm looking at doing hydrosols as clothes and general home use spray rather than go down route of trying to mix water alcohol and EO.

also I think with a  solubilizer... I think it neutralises the water repelling side of the EO, but it won't mean the EO will be suspended evenly in the liquid like milk for instance, bits will tend to float or sink depending on specific gravity of the EO. So it might be the spray is releasing more EO from the top or bottom of the liquid? ... so maybe shake before spraying?

yeah but for those of us without allotments and home distilling machines??  :mwaha: :mwaha: :mwaha:

 :mwaha:  :mwaha:

maybe look at it from the point of lotion making. the solysorbate is basically acting like an emulsifier. In effect it might be a form of separation you are seeing? maybe add a gum or thickener so water is less fluid and the EO molecules that have bound to solysorbate are less mobile in the water.

I don't know if it would work, but worth a go?

Other more experience lotion makers, please feel free to jump in. Perhaps another thing to try is to calculate HLB. Polysorbate 20 might not be the right choice (or mix it with something else?). I have a feeling it is more suited to FO and not EO

Andoy can you remember what you thought it was the lady used at the other market?

I've only got ps80 in at the moment, so it might not be the best trial, but I tried a 2% PS solution. It hardly dispersed the eo at that level, although not milky, and was still very sticky even so.

she wasn't using polysorbate. I mentioned it to her because I don't think she heard of it. She was using a combo of alcohol and water. Not sure what type of alcohol and what proportion as I didn't get to ask her. Her sprays weren't cheap. She was selling them as sort of pleasant scent spray, but in fact they are basically mini perfumes and most people will probably use them as that for the price she was selling them at (£10 for 100ml bottle?).

Polysorbate 20 & 80 are described as a way of making small amount of oils solubiseable in water... quite a few sites say it, but the HLB values are 16.7 & 15 respectively. Many EOs have much lower HLB value (somewhere around 8 mark). It may work as a solublubber thingy whotsit but I think it's not as effective and it just saves hassle of heating  :shrug:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/pdf/Emulsions_&_HLB_System.pdf (http://www.lotioncrafter.com/pdf/Emulsions_&_HLB_System.pdf)

If I were you I would try something along the lines of
1% EO
0.3% Polysorbate
0.7% glyceryl stearate
then a gelling agent (agar or xantham or even jello whatever you happen to have to hand)  :mwaha: this will help stabalise it.

(If you increase %EO then increase the Polysorbate & glyceryl stearate accordingly, but I have a feeling you could double or triple the EO and still be ok with those). You will have to heat them a la lotion and stick blend, but then you'll have less greassy ingredients

you could then experiment adding a bit of alcohol and see how it affects it. It might detestableise it or it might not, but the alcohol may help reduce oil residue I think.

now after you've done all that, don't you think it's easier to grow some plants and distil EOs yourself, then you'll have hydrosols to play with?!   ::owl::

if you don't have Glyceryl Stearate how about using whatever bog standard emulsifier you normally use (Easimulse that Helen sells would be ideal)... Heat water, sprinkle emulsifier and wait to melt. stick blend, then add EO and stick blend for a while. That might even work... I'm going to try it now  :mwaha:

I have no garden  ;D

I have a feeling her sprays were some kind of alcohol and EO only.

I didn't recognise the way she listed the alcohol, but I thought you said you recognised the smell.

She has 30% eo in them

I think denatured alcohol (ethanol/isoproylene blend) or MPG (monopropyl glycol which is used to dilute thick EOs or those airfreshner wick things)?

(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu195/andoyo/soaps/IMG_0939a_zpsryadhaa1.jpg) (http://s647.photobucket.com/user/andoyo/media/soaps/IMG_0939a_zpsryadhaa1.jpg.html)
here you go... very thin emulsified lemongrass EO in water

about 120g water (some would have evaporated)
1g Easimulse
2.5ml Lemongrass EO

in warm milky looking format that I have to keep reminding myself not to drink

you can try adding a bit of alcohol and thickening it a bit to ensure it wil be a bit more stable

not sure - I thought it was de-natured, but I remember you said the smell was familiar? SK say on their page that DN alcohol isn't suitable as a base for room sprays (flammability? perhaps as perfume is alcohol based its't it?)

 :mwaha:

interesting experiment. How was the feel if it? Was it sticky like PS?

Wow, this thread took a very interesting turn whilst I was at work  ;D You've given me a lot to ponder, thanks

I've been considering the alcohol route today, as it happens. I dismissed it originally because I was under the impression that you needed a license but I've since come across Formulators alcohol, does that need a license, does anyone know?

Whilst at work today, I did a bit of experimenting myself with the room sprays. I had been using about 8% polysorbate, together with 2% glyerine, so I decided to strip it back as much as possible. I decided to try capryl glucoside at 4% instead of the polysorbate and ditched the glycerine completely and I'm pleased to say it seemed much better. The droplets seemed less weighty if that makes sense, so it didn't just fall straight to the ground as before and seemed to hang in the air longer iykwim. I might have a closer inspection of it tomorrow, testing it on fabric and different materials and see what happens but I'm just happy with the fact that the floor didn't feel slippy like it did with the last stuff. So I guess what I can conclude from that is to keep it as simple as possible, as I had double the amount of gloopy (sorry not very technical I know) stuff in it before.

Bit envious of your hydrosol (and EO) production though Andoy :) I have been using some hydrosols in my spray but only in small amounts due to the cost of them.  

Alcohol is used in quite a few products, but Yes you do need to keep it away from flames, lit candles and smokers  if you put too much :mwaha:

I don't know what the legalities are with respect to how much you use. I imagine you don't need more than a couple percent if you use min amount of emulsifier.

Basically if you keep the amount of emulsifier down to minimum. About 1/4 of EO should be enough and if you use a better emulsifier with correct HLB (polysorbate on its own is probably not the best for this). Any emulsifier you use will contribute to oilyness of your water based spray as all of them are waxy/oily. So only as much as you need and incorporate it well with good heating/mixing.

The EO will also contribute to oilyness too depending on which one you use.

I would also add a preservative btw

capryl glucoside is basically a mild surfactant (detergent) btw. Surfactants are often used like/as emulsifier because the have oil and water attracting heads that pull water and oil from each end. It's a bit like adding fairly liquid to you spray. they don't tend to be too waxy/slippy, but effectively they will leave something like a trace of soap which might be better residue. I'm not sure how stable they are longer term.

Umm yeah it might affect the scent in the long run, something else for me to monitor I guess. Nothings ever straight forward is it ;)

I don't think it will affect the scent (unless you get unwanted growth even then most will not smell), but you need to think about shelf life and stability... who knows you might start selling these in the shops and the last thing you want is for people to be spraying bacteria/mould/fungus around or the product to separate and look very unsightly.

I don't know why hydrosols are expensive. I guess it's mainly the cost of transporting them and problems preserving them. There isn't a large demand for them and many people who would want to buy them (skin care crafters) don't want the word preservative or paraben on them. Not much EO is produced in this country, so it's a bit like sending bottled water around the world.

I've been using a preservative (Geoguard), so they should be ok in terms of shelf life.

Hydrosols are used a lot in Aromatherapy and Herbal Medicine practice, which is why I've got them in stock, I prescribe them to patients. I buy them straight from herbal suppliers in the UK but like I say they're a bit pricey, so it feels a bit extravagant using them for room sprays.

my little experiment yesterday has actually thickened quite a bit even without a thickening agent. It actually makes a nice light lotion. I don't know how it would work as a spray. I haven't got a sprayer bottle to hand. It might work well as wood polish/shine as it is  :mwaha:

you can make a sort of tea or infussion if you use dried or even fresh botanicals. mash them up heat them and strain. I have been doing that with my geraniums. Jasmin tea is actually Sambac flowers mixed in tea blend (you can probably buy dried flowers on their own). Chamomile tea and Lavender teas are along same line and easy enough to obtain. Scent will be a bit more subtle, but sometimes less is more.

You can also use alcohol to extract a bit more, but choose an alcohol that doesn't have too strong smell that you'll be fighting against. This is in effect how they extract some essential oils that are more volatile. Basically the alcohol acts as a solvent to break up the botanical. In essential oil extraction it is cooked continuously (botanicals are held in strainer and alcohol trickles thru it in sohxlet reactor) and in the final stage the alcohol is evaporated out. You basically don't need to cook out the alcohol, you just strain out the botanical after letting it sit for a while. The alcohol with your botanical scent will be self preserving until you dilute it in water.

p.s. I've not used geoguard, but it has benzyl alcohol which can over time oxidise and smell of almonds apparently. Sorbic Acid also can discolour and smell petroleum like over time. Also limited life of about a year according to my notes. Might not be a problem now, but something to consider.

...you can see why febreeze use FO!

I've just checked a bottle I happen to have from years ago and it has no ingredients listed on it. I have a feeling it is water, FO, a bit of alcohol (just cheaper Isopropanol I think), some Propylene Glycol in there. It says non-flamable propellant, but that just means there isn't a large amount of flamable stuff in there like those pressurised cans you can use as a flame thrower. If you go down the alcohol route, just do a little test out doors... and have fire extinguisher ready  :mwaha:

Alcohol is too dangerous, too many people with open Fireplaces in this country.

I was actually looking into room spray, but with watersoluble fragrances. These are easy enough to get since Vaping has become so common. They are oil free food flavours, usually dispensed in Propylene Glycol. There is a Polish Company that has the biggest choice and they basically have all the fragrances one could ever need and then some.

I know, there are companies that make EO roomsprays, but when you look at their range, it is usually all the EOS where a hydrsol is available. So I am assuming that is what they use, maybe a bit watered down.

I wonder how much alcohol you need to make a fire hazard.

SK supply ethanol, but where they give details of where to get a licence they comment it will be refused if you say its to be used for room spray.

I assume perfume gets away with it because you tend to spray it on you? rather than round the room?

Don't like to diss. anyone's products, but I have a feeling the ones being sold were 30% eo, 70% alcohol. I don't remember any other ingredients ....

and I thought this would be an EASY product  :mwaha: :mwaha:

The Febreze one says "5% by mass of the contents are flammable" ...that won't be just alcohol though and it doesn't have any oils, terpines and other things you have in EOs that are also flammable.

This is also problem I'm going to have with producing EOs for florals. Health and Safety laws (and other restrictions) basically make it so expensive to comply in this country when you start using alcohols in manufacturing. So I'm going to experiment doing them (not sure that is even legal), then possibly look to doing them somewhere else in the world.

I have no idea what the regs are for perfumes with respect to alcohol, but things like deodorant often have quite high alcohol content.

I'm with MP on watersoluble FO. I would probably go down that road if I wasn't experimenting with EO distillation (and I'm only consider selling it mainly just to help pay for the project really). Another factor is pricing ingredients; ethanol is quite expensive and cheaper isopropyl doesn't smell nice and will mean more EO.

Some people just shake it in; EO floats on the top and water drawn from base and there is nice natural fragrance even if you don't shake it.

p.s.
I remember the product I bought from SK now (sold as diffuser carrier). It's called Dipropylene glycol methyl ether and it doesn't particularly smell nice. You have to put quite a lot of EO in it and you can still smell it. I'll try to bring a small bottle for you in next market.

well I'm not keen on slippery floors OR setting houses on fire

 :mwaha:

so perhaps either shake the bottle or water soluble fragrance.

I'm not familiar with them at all MP - not being a smoker or knowing anyone who vapes. What are they like as fragrances?

I'm at a loss what to do regarding preservatives tbh, I spent ages researching them months back and came to the conclusion that Geoguard was the best option but I've recently read about it becoming a carcinogen when mixed with vitamin C and as I use citrus essential oils in my room sprays, I figured this could be an issue. But what to use now?

I also thought this was going to be an easy product Iulia, but how wrong we were  ???

As we actually "taste" mostly with our nose, they mostly smell better than they taste, but at least they are also safe for human consumption. Inawera is the company most vapers use for making own juice. There are others as well, but as we aren't looking for flavour, just for smell, I think they will be just fine.

http://www.inaweraflavours.com/en/